It was reported on WWP (Why we protest) that Narconon UK had closed down and was in the process of moving its patients to Holland.
As there was no DOX to support this claim I figured it was worth using the equivalent of a scam bait and proceeded to build a poor unfortunate fellow addicted to Bath Salts and approached Narconon UK.
First I attempted to call the telephone numbers they had to offer but those rang out, Mind you it was the first positive sign something was up at Narconon Uk.
Now follows the email conversations with James Fish and Bartholomew Salt..
Let the bait commence.
I have tried to contact your freephone number and the direct line at the Narconon center in Sussex.
The freephone number rings out and the direct line would appear disconnected.
Has the center shut down or relocated?
I am seeking treatment for my addiction and heard you can help.
Mr B Salt
Dear Mr Salt,
The centre is in the process of being relocated. Currently, we do not operate from a centre in the UK. In the interim we are acting as referral agents to get people on to the Narconon program in a centre of their choosing anywhere within our worldwide network, especially in Europe or America.
If you are able to speak any European languages then the choice is yours as to which you go to.
If English is your only language, then within Europe, Narconon Holland is English speaking and it is the best priced center on the network.
If you would like a more in-depth chat, the freephone line should be active. If it rang out, please accept my apologies. It is presently redirecting to a mobile telephone.
Alternatively feel free to call me directly on 07704 539111.
for Narconon UK
Well the email from Mr Fish to Mr Bath Salt has cleared it up.
In particular the following statements he has made
1)The center is in the process of being relocated
2) Currently, we do not operate from a center in the UK.
Thank you for responding to me.
I was under the impression there was a center in the UK in Sussex? has this closed down?
Is Holland now the only center dealing with the UK?
As I am based in London I don’t see how I can get treatment in Holland without moving there!.
Mr B Salt.
It took a while but he responded.
Dear Mr Salt.
Yes, the center in Hastings is closed.
I am able to refer you to any other Narconon center around the world. I mentioned Holland because it is the closest and also the one that we have the best relationship with. It has good success with English people. It is NOT the only centre dealing with the UK. It is the cheapest at 2500 euros for the 1st month and then 1500 euros each month after, or 12000 euros for the whole program and you can stay as long as you need to.
I recently arranged for someone to go to Narconon Freedom Centre in Michigan, USA.
In any case, the Narconon program is a residential program so you would be expected to live in. Experience has demonstrated that the further away you are from distractions,the better your chance of success.
So if you want to go to treatment, and you need it to work first time, then you need to consider the level of commitment you are willing to put in. All our students eventually come to realize that a 6 month program is a small investment to make when their lives, jobs, and relationships with family and friends are at stake if the addiction is left untreated.
Simply put, if you are at a stage where you are seeking help for yourself then you have obviously come through the denial phase and signs are there that you have a serious addiction. A serious addiction problem is not something that can simply be treated in a matter of a few weeks or on an outpatient basis – it needs all the steps of the Narconon program to be delivered full time, in a safe environment, in order to handle effectively and permanently.
I don’t want to flood you with too much information at once, but I want you to hear about the components of the program and how they help. I will forward you an email a bit later.
Please give it some careful thought and get back to me if you would like to talk over the phone. 07704 539111
Not one to keep him waiting I replied..
Thank you again for the info, Can you tell me what other centers there are in the UK which are still operational?
I’m just a bit confused because I cannot find any other centers in the UK online.
It would be England that I am seeking treatment and not another country, this would not be possible for me to relocate.
What a shame the Hastings center is closed! it would have been perfect.
Why did it close?
Once I feel a bit more confident that I can get treatment in the UK through Narconon I will give you a ring to discuss my battle with addiction and exactly what it is I am addicted to.
Mr B Salt
Again I get a reply from Mr Fish.
Dear Mr Salt,
Did you get my email about my experience of the program which I sent late last night? I hope so, it took my bloody ages to type it ! haha
Narconon in the UK had only one rehabilitation center. This was the center in Hastings, East Sussex.
It closed because the landlord decided to redevelop the building, he would not renew our lease, and so it forced us into having to find a new center.
Unfortunately, we were unable to find a suitable building quickly enough. When we have found the right building, in the right location, we will open a new center.
This means that at the present time, you are not going to be able to receive the Narconon program in the UK.
It will not be possible until a new center is opened. I cannot say how long it will take because it is still in a planning and fundraising stage.
I totally understand the barriers that you see with the issue of relocating, but irrespective of where you go to treatment, for it to be successful you will need to leave your old life behind for a little while. If you went to Narconon Hastings you would have to reside there and you cannot just come and go as you please. To go to Holland would be just a few months respite and when you complete the program you can return home.
In Holland, you could have guests and stay at a local B & B with family members or friends when they visit, and you can even return home for special occasions if you have a carefully planned itinerary.
Really and truly, the further away you are from your old stomping ground for this period of rehabilitation, the fewer complications will arise, and therefore the more effective it will be.
Trust me on this. I went to Narconon Holland to do my own program, and it was such a huge relief to leave my ‘baggage’ in the UK and deal with my issues undistracted. It really enabled me to just get on with my program and get it done properly.
Perhaps if you can let me know what you considerations are on relocating, I can find some solutions for you. Please give me some idea of what problems you are up against.
Sounds delightful! – Leave my old life behind and be locked up in Holland where I cannot come and go as I please! I am glad it took him many hours to write an email to me. this was hours wasted on me and not on some real poor sap being drawn into this joke of a drug program.
I replied this time letting out the bag my full name and supposed drug addiction being Methylenedioxyprovalerone (that’s bath salts to you and me) 😀
Yes I did get that email thank you. a lot of information in there. Oh that is a shame its closed and there is no other center in the UK as this would have been a perfect location for me being in the London area.
It would be quite a step for me to relocate and something I would need to consider.
My problem has been an ongoing abuse of substances rather like your own. pretty much a mixture of everything and most recently I started experimenting with Methylenedioxyprovalerone (MDPV) which resulted in some nasty nasty episodes.
I have a couple of questions that I would need to consider if I really am going to go through with this.
Could you elaborate on the treatments and how safe they are?
Has anyone had any adverse side effects to treatments and became seriously ill or worse still died?
At this point I thought the game was up, He would connect my name Barth Salt and the drug but to my complete surprise he replied again!
The Narconon program has an important policy of being a drug free rehabilitation program.
That means that we do not use medications to facilitate withdrawal or to wean people down. Before a person is accepted onto the Narconon program, they must see a doctor who will give them a thorough once over and an interview. On the basis of this examination the doctor will determine if it is safe for the client to begin a drug free withdrawal.
In some cases this can be unsafe. For example, if someone is addicted to alcohol or benzodiazepines then it is absolutely necessary that they are weaned off, or are given a medicated detox to avoid complications such as seizure. In cases like that, we would refer the person to a place where they can pay for a medical detox prior to coming to Narconon to start the program.
The next step of the program is the New Life Detoxification Program. This is where the body purges itself of remaining toxins by sweating them out, using a sauna and high doses of Niacin. Niacin is used to stimulate circulation and make the flushing process happen quickly and efficiently in order to utilise the full cleansing potential of the sauna. There are reports that such high doses of Niacin are not healthy for the body to take. Personally I would not take such doses of Niacin on a regular basis, but I am pretty confident that for the 3 or 4 week duration of the complete sauna program, Niacin in these doses is fine.
The high doses of vitamins are needed to accompany the niacin for two reasons:
1, firstly because to take large doses of a single vitamin can produce imbalances and this has the potential to create an artificial deficiency – make someone feel unwell and demonstrate symptoms of a vitamin deficiency, when in actual fact it was caused because a complementary vitamin was lacking. An example of this is the relationship with vitamin C and vitamin B1. To metabolise Vitamin C, the body needs sufficient stores of B1 too. If you give the body too much vitamin C and no B1, the body can manifest symptoms of a deficiency in vitamin B1 which is nothing more than an imbalance. With such high doses of Niacin, we need to keep the balance up across the board.
2, the process of sweating in the sauna is extremely physically demanding and requires these vitamins to keep you feeling well throughout the session. A single day’s session in the sauna will consist of 1/2 hr of exercise to get your circulation going, followed by between 2 1/2 and 4 1/2 hrs of sweating, with breaks as needed. It sounds like a tall order at first, but it becomes rather enjoyable and a very relaxing way to spend your day toward the end of your program !
Again, before starting the sauna program a doctor will give you a second thorough inspection. This time for a blood test, liver function test, to listen to your respiratory system and get a general review of your health etc in order to determine that your physical condition is well enough to endure the physically demanding sessions of sweating in the sauna, and the high intake of vitamins including Niacin during this part of the program.
As a consequence of increasing your Niacin, and flushing out drugs that were lodged in your fat cells there are side effects, such as manifestations similar to the effect of the drugs themselves or the behaviours which they induced. Even emotions which were masked with the use of certain drugs can resurface. This is all to be expected, and in fact it’s a necessary thing because it gives us indications that things are happening and your sauna program is working. In the end you will know that it has been effective and you will undoubtedly tell us how worthwhile the process has been.
The remainder of the course consists of therapeutic objective exercises, which bring you in to communication with yourself, others around you, and your environment, and then the final 4 books, which are all life skills courses and require study in classroom setting.
I don’t actually know about deaths but I am sure that some have probably occurred in Narconon centres around the world, however I would hazard a guess that the death rate is lower in Narconon centres than other rehabilitation centres. It must be par for the course when you work in drug rehabilitation.
My own experience tells me that there is no reason why any elements of the program itself would cause someone to become seriously ill. Done by the book, there is no scope for any risks to be taken and in today’s compensation culture, you can bet that Narconon takes no chances. If it is not safe for someone to start a drug-free detox, then we make sure that they go for a medical detox first.
As far as your seizure medication is concerned, it would depend on the actual medication. e.g. if it is some kind of Benzo, you would not be allowed to take it while on the program so we’d ask you to change it to a suitable alternative, or if that is not possible we’d find you a different program. I know one or two people who were on the Narconon program who take medication for Epilepsy and it is totally acceptable.
I don’t know if the sauna would interfere with your seizure meds, but that is something you can discuss with the doctor before you begin the program.
Narconon will never expect a person to stop taking medicines that are required, but we do sometimes help people to find less harmful alternative medications which can address the same issues.
Very best regards
Now for the science bit!
Thank you for clearing that up for me.
Can you elaborate on the final 4 books, which are all life skills courses and require study in classroom setting that you mention?
What books by who are these exactly?
I was reading more on the program last night and noticed that only recently the center in Quebec was closed down and they removed all residents.
It also says that there is no scientific basis to the treatments and that FOUR clients were taken to hospital because of methods used at the center.
Is this true that there is no scientific basis to the treatments?
I also read last night that three people have died in the Arrowhead center in the united states and this is only recently! You stated to me that you are not aware of any deaths though you did acknowledge that deaths have probably occurred.
Were you aware of these incidents in particular?
Given all this that I have now noticed I must admit it does not fill me with confidence with relocating to a center on a foreign country into a place which clearly has some controversy, compounded with learning that the center is closed in the UK I am sure you will agree I have valid concern.
Finally you mention that I would need to see a Doctor regarding medication and the possible need for a medical detox. Is this an appointed Doctor by Narconon or is this a Doctor of my own choosing?
To my total surprise yet again he continued this time with a mother-load
Narconon was founded by a Mexican drug lord named William Benitez, who was reading Hubbard’s books in prison and found that the material had helped him. He wrote to Hubbard to ask permission to use the material by editing them in to a simpler and more accessible form, and delivering them to drug addicts as a program to help their rehabilitation. You can read about this at (WARNING SCIENTOLOGY LINK AHEAD) www.narconon.org. This is Narconon International’s website.
I would add at this point that the reason why there is so much bad press about Narconon on the internet, is because they are seen to be affiliated with the church of Scientology more closely than they actually are.
Scientology has its attackers for a variety of reasons, and these attackers are determined to bring down ‘the church’. Narconon is related because their course material uses Scientology theory, and also because in order to use that material they must pay license fees to ABLE.(The Association of Better Living and Education), who probably pay their dues up-lines also. The reality is that there is little, if any financial benefit to the church of Scientology from Narconon centres.
The centre in Quebec was closed because of its political links to France. France takes a very strong Anti-Scientology stance. The attackers used a number of different tactics to get the centre closed down over a number of years. I cannot really comment on this because I do not know the full details. Trust me when I say that it was very criminal behaviour and criminally motivated, and that the tactics were underhand.
In Quebec, there was either a new centre or there were plans to open a new centre to tackle drug and alcohol addiction. It is a centre paid for by companies within the pharmaceutical industry and one which will, in turn, finance the industry by providing treatments which use maintenance prescribing and so forth. Obviously it is in the interest of pharmaceutical industries, and due to the vested interests described, of this new centre, that maintenance prescribing is used.
It means that every user going through these centres will begin a course of treatment which will involve their continued and perhaps permanent use of legal, prescribed alternatives to the street drugs to which they were already addicted.
To have a Narconon centre in the vicinity preaching an entirely different philosophy; not only actually taking people out of this system altogether, but also educating them about the dangers of it, so that they protect themselves and others in the future, is a terrible inconvenience to these organisations. It is a threat to their business, and also to their long-term survival.
I can give you a little more insight into the whole situation by illustrating to you the nature of the opposition. Scientology is a believer in the spirit being the most influential factor on a human being’s health and wellbeing. They also have quite strong objections to a lot of mainstream medicine. This is because there is a tendency for doctors to treat a symptom, rather than to look for an underlying cause and treat that. So many of the drugs prescribed will handle symptoms that people complain of. Doctors are happy to prescribe in the mistaken belief that they are helping people get better. Pharmaceutical industries are happy for drugs to be prescribed as the industry is so incredibly lucrative.
Scientology challenges this, offering alternatives to drug therapies which are very effective because they handle the cause, and not only does that negate the need for drugs to paper over the cracks on an immediate basis, but it also kills off the demand for drugs to handle recurring symptoms longer term. Of course, this is a huge threat to the pharmaceutical industry, in particular the psychiatric industry.
This is one where the pharmaceutical industry is most guilty, as it is widely known and conceded that there are no physical characteristics to look for in the diagnosis of the vast majority of ‘mental illnesses’.
The Psychiatric industry is the biggest attacker of Scientology, and in turn Narconon.
The motivation is money, because the pharmaceutical industry is one of the most lucrative in the world and Scientology has the power to turn the current think on its head.
I will leave you to draw your own conclusions about why Narconon in Quebec was attacked, and actually why Narconon’s all over the world are being attacked.
We know that our attackers do offer financial incentives to people to get them to attack us when they might have a reason to – for example family members of people with grievances against Narconon.
Like you, I have also asked the question about the scientific basis to Narconon’s treatments, in particular the sauna. I know that the Narconon program as a whole is currently going through an accreditation process in the USA so that it is recognised as an evidence based program. This is being lead by Gary Smith, the ED of Narconon Arrowhead.
When I asked the question, I was told that L Ron Hubbard did carry out research on the efficacy of the sauna program and it has been published. Of course this is not independent research, and so it is not valid to any critics of Narconon.
The sauna detox is based on research where post-mortems demonstrate that traces of drugs continue to be lodged in fat cells in the body, even years after drugs had been used.
As someone who has worked as the sauna-in-charge at Narconon Holland, and someone who has been through the program, I have absolutely no doubt that the program is effective and absolutely worthwhile. Countless times, I have seen evidence of drugs going into restimulation, and also of various ills such as long term insomnia clearing up once and for all, after a specific incident on the detox program.
As for it being scientifically proven to do the things it says, in exactly the way that it claims, I do not know one way or the other.
I was not aware of the incidents in Arrowhead that you mentioned. As someone who is encouraging people to start the Narconon program, it is not news that would anyone would readily pass on to me.
Obviously I cannot comment on these incidents because I have absolutely no idea on the details. However, it seems that the press and families miss the point that it is drugs and alcohol that kill people, not Narconon.
It is easy to look for someone to blame when you are grieving the loss of a loved one, but actually the responsibility lies with the addict. If people manage to smuggle drugs into the centre, by swallowing, or by some other way, then Narconon cannot have total control over this. As a treatment environment, a certain amount of willingness must be demonstrated by the client to succeed, to stick to the rules, and to go with the course of treatment as agreed. The people in question for each investigation apparently failed to show this. Unfortunately, this trend is one which will only prevail and continue to grow as the widespread use of prescription drugs remains out of control.
Finally, I want to clarify the point on the doctor. Narconon Hastings had an NHS doctor visit the clients as they arrived at the centre. Because we are a privately run charity, we had a private arrangement with the doctor which included all consultations for the program. This meant that we used the same doctor throughout the course of the program. The Doctor was obviously therefore appointed by Narconon, but could be anyone who is a qualified M.D and we would brief them on the Narconon program and the methods that we use so that they are aware of what the clients go through on the program. This is absolutely necessary as they are deciding if the clients are suitable for a, a drug free withdrawal, and b, the sauna program.
If we were to allow doctors to be appointed by students themselves, we would run the risk of doctors giving the OK for students to start the Narconon program without any real background on what the Narconon program does. It would be too risky, and would create too much randomness to be an effective way of operating.
Regarding your seizure medication, if you insisted on seeing a doctor of your choosing about this then that would be possible, but we would request your permission to send a member of staff in to the appointment with you to ensure the doctor was given ALL the data they needed before making their decision an any alternatives.
The final four books are as follows:
Ups and Downs in Life
This discusses the reasons why people can sometimes do well in life, and other times seem to get stuck or do worse. It helps you to recognise the factors that influence you. You learn which people are good people to be around, and which people are not good to be around. You learn how to identify who you can trust, and you learn how to handle situations where you are negatively affected by certain people. It is not as simple as don’t hang around with your old friends who used drugs with you. It is more subtle than that, and a technology which when applied, can result in you feeling happy and untroubled all of the time.
This book covers subjects including ethics, justice, responsibility, and it teaches you about dynamics. Dynamics are the elements of life which all need to be attended to in order to survive. By breaking life down into categories in this way, it is found that people have a handle on life, because they have a good understanding on how this element interacts with others, and also have ideas on what kinds of activities can promote survival on each dynamic.
There is also a mechanism where you write your overts and withholds (bad things which you have done, or things which you have failed to do which had bad results, or indeed bad things which you know about which should be out in the open). This is a similar mechanism to writing a personal inventory – step 4 of a 12 step program, or going to confession in church, but the emphasis here is that it is NOT just a way of relieving yourself of the burden of transgressions, it is a way of getting a perspective of your responsibility over life and the way it turns out. It gives you a very keen view of how your actions effect you in life and the consequences and ramifications are easily identified. It certainly encourages you to continue to do the right things in life because you see in a very objective way, how it is going to help you to stay clean
Changing conditions in life This book is a very effective way of looking at the mechanism of life and way you move up and down through the conditions on heath dynamic.
You might be very affluent, or you might be in danger, or just starting up in a new capacity. These would be different conditions. You would apply these condition to each dynamic. The book talks about the way in which things operate in this universe, in terms of these conditions, and it talk about the things which need to happen in order to bring about a change or improvement. It present a different formula which can be applied to different conditions which effectively allow you to strengthen your position in life, no matter where you currently are.It also talks about how people can have hang ups in certain areas. It teaches you how to apply the condition formulas to past events in order to free yourself of these hang ups and finally move forward in present day.
Again, this book needs to be completed so that you can get a true idea of how effective it is. It is still something that you can continue to apply for the rest of your life.
I know of business consultancy companies who are set up in Los Angeles and purely use this ‘technology’ to improve the condition of businesses. They make their money based on the level of improvement in the client’s performance. They do very well! The theory of this book works.
The Way to Happiness This is a presentation of some basic tenets of good living. You might say it is just a book containing a moral code, in that it contains rules to living which promote the life of yourself and others around you.
This is a very simple text, but has been very effective in areas where it has been freely distributed to reduce crime and increase civility in society.
From one human being to another, I recommend the Narconon program over any other because it worked for me and it can work for you too. There is little more I can say to you than that.
I am not a Scientologist, I was not recruited to be a Scientology, and I don’t work for Narconon anymore. The only reason I am in contact with you is because I am working on a voluntary basis to handle the helplines etc.
I believe it helps people, and that is the only thing that was important to me – getting help that worked!
Nice to be in touch with you. I hope I have answered all your concerns.
All the best
What? Eh? Not a scientologist! not working for Narconon but just helping out with the phones, oh brother! Being curious of the name of the doctor he mentioned I replied.
I have thought hard about the email you sent me and have some more questions if you would be so kind as to give me your thoughts on them.
You stated that it was political pressure that closed the centre in Quebec, just a simple search on wikipedia states this. (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narconon)
“Narconon Trois-Rivières closed by Quebec
On April 17, 2012, Quebec health officials ordered the Narconon in Trois-Rivières to evacuate and relocate its 32 residents. After an investigation into Narconon Trois-Rivières’ activities by the Centre Québécois d’Agrément (an independent body mandated to monitor quality in health care), the Mauricie Region’s Health and Social Services Agency decided not to certify the rehabilitation centre. The Agency’s director Marc Latour said Narconon Trois-Rivières was dangerous for patients, violated many of the criteria regulating Quebec’s rehabilitation centres, and that there was no medical supervision and no scientific basis to the treatment. He also said at least four clients were taken to hospital in recent months because of methods used at the centre”
I see nothing at all there to do with the political pressure you mentioned but in fact it would seem the Health Authority closed the centre as it was dangerous for patients.
Can you & would you comment on this?
You asked me to draw my own conclusions and I have started to read more and what is available online differs greatly from what you said to me.
You also said to me you were unaware of the recent events at Arrowhead, this is concerning me because I feel that you should have a duty of care to know about these reported events in the media. Here are some links you may be interested in.
I just feel that you should be aware of this and would be interested in your reaction to it.
As to the scientific basis, I think we both can agree that there is none in the sense as there have been no independent studies to this treatment. This is now a major concern to me as I was not aware before that this treatment has not been scientifically proven to be beneficial or safe.
I must admit I am now also concerned that the program is actually what can only be described as a front group for Scientology, regardless of the books being watered down by this Mexican drug Baron chap, It is still as far as I am concerned Scientology material and given the controversy surround that subject I am sure you can see my point of view that I would now be skeptical that it can help me and my situation.
Please do not get me wrong, I appreciate the time an effort you are taking to explain the program to me and I hope you see my reply as sensible and not provocative to your program and insulting of any belief system you have.
I would very much like to speak to the doctor in question who looked after Hasting centre. Maybe he can give me some advise from his medical perspective and experience which would help me in making the decision.
Would you have contact information for this doctor available?
Thanks again James for taking the time to speak to me, I am still undecided on how to proceed but I am still seriously considering the treatment with Narconon and would welcome anymore thoughts you have on the subject that you feel would be beneficial to me.
He replies but this time sounds a little agitated.
Honestly, it sounds like you have already drawn your conclusions based on the references you have read and it sounds like you have long come to your decision about pursuing a course of treatment at Narconon, and become ‘effect’ of those people attacking Scientology, and unfortunately Narconon.
My aim is to help you get the treatment you need and not more than that. Whilst I want to be of assistance to you and answer your concerns in order to reassure you, I am not happy about getting into a discussion about the rightness or wrongness of Narconon. I know it works. There is no question on that. However, I just feel compelled to put you straight on so many points that are based on false data.
Whether or not it uses Scientology materials is of no consequence to me because it saved my life and it saved the lives of others including one of my best friends. Even if it meant that in order to save my life and get a control over my addiction I had to become a Scientologist, I think I would still have opted to go to Narconon because it is better than being dead. The fact is, it does not mean that. The only aim of Narconon is to get you off drugs and send you back into society as a drug-free, contributing member of society, I am sure even the attackers of Narconon would agree that this is a good thing?
All the information and background information I gave you puts in to context how Narconon CAN be linked to scientology and also why it IS linked, and attacked by attackers of Scientology.
If you disregard that background, and see it as nothing more than ‘a front group for Scientology’ then there is little more I can say to change your mind. The frustrating thing is that these are words taken directly out of the websites authored by the attackers – those references containing all the black PR that I was telling you about, and they do not represent truth.
The truth I have already made known in my last email. I can’t give you any more information than the what is true.
You say that you are sure I can appreciate your viewpoints on Narconon and the resultant doubts on how the program can help you. Well I can accept your doubt on Narconon, but as for it bringing doubt upon whether or not it can help your situation is totally off the point. It just doesn’t matter. Irrespective of what Narconon is, or from where it is derived, the fact of whether or not it can help you is determined purely by whether or not you are a drug addict. If you are, then it can help.
To put in to context about Trois Rivieres, I would point out that Wikipedia is an open source reference. It can be updated by anybody. Our attackers are extremely well organised and use Wikipedia as one source for publishing black PR.
I know that the Wikipedia website was updated within hours of the centre closing. It was updated by the very people who had been working for years to close the centre down, and the indication was that it was all part of a continued drive to discredit Narconon and publish its failings. You will notice that the Wikipedia site on Narconon is authored in a tone which is not supportive of Narconon. Do the maths yourself Bartholemew. We have an organisation which is saving lives, and working toward an incredibly constructive cause and the Wikipedia site is basically one big invalidation of what it stands for and what it does. It is clearly not balanced at all, although cleverly it seems to report things in an objective way, but actually omits any good news at all. It is easy to see why people would be scared off of Narconon if they read this material.
It reports facts which purposely mislead and is written in a tone which has the guise of sounding professional. It is not. I know that because the purpose of publishing these facts is to bring down Narconon – for no other reason that a deep seated hatred for some of Scientology. There is nothing balanced or independent or professional about this, it is just malicious.
The tragic thing here is that there are so many people whose lives have been badly affected. What about all the students of Trois Rivieres? I hope those attackers can give themselves a big pat on the back in the knowledge that the collateral damage of their attack on Scientology has resulted in people returning to active addiction, families being torn apart, and lives being lost. I find it quite sickening.
Again, I am not able to give you details on what happened in Canada, but I can tell you that there was a criminal element to what was going on, there were criminal motives and underhand tactics. I know that these attackers paid money to have people go to treatment with a view to spying on, and sabotaging Narconon.
What you read in Wikipeida is the end result of this incredibly messy, damaging and sustained campaign of attack, and of course you are not going to read the whole story, because if you did it would be clear that there was always an intention to close down Narconon, and that the reason why they were closed down was because of this campaign against them; not because Narconon as an organisation have a treatment modality which is unsafe.
When you told me about the incidents at Arrowhead I did my own research and I already came across the references you mentioned. I cannot comment on this situation. I just don’t know what the circumstances were.
As I intimated yesterday, surely there is only so much a treatment centre can do to control the presence of drugs in their facility, and if people are intent on getting them into a treatment centre then they will. It happens in prisons, so you can surely expect it to happen in treatment centres – without there being cause for them to be accused of neglect!
I think that what has happened at Arrowhead is very common to the treatment field, and ever more prevalent in today’s culture of the abuse of prescription drugs. An investigation has been called and no conclusions have been drawn.
Why was the investigation called? Because someone requested it. Who inspired that action? I wonder…
As to the scientific studies – I have already pointed out that Narconon is already going through the accreditation process so that they are recognised as an evidence based program. The Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration is the United States Government’s Federal Agency concerned with improving the quality and availability of alcohol and drug addiction treatment in the US. It oversees and runs the approval process that sanctions Evidence Based Treatment Practices in the US, which is called NREPP – The National Registry for Evidence Based Program Practices. The guidelines they use to approve programs are based on internationally accepted standards. Obviously Narconon have nothing to hear about the validity of the program.
Additionally, here is a link to a page of references on the independent studies:
( WARNING SCIENTOLOGY LINK) http://www.narconon.org/about-narconon/narconon-science-references.pdf
I have given you a full description of our program, and I have given you a full response to all the bullshit out there so that you can put that into context too.
I will add this though:
You don’t need to apologise to be about insulting any belief system I have – like I said, I am not a Scientologist.
What I do believe is that Narconon is worthwhile if you are drug addict because it will help you. Its very simple and I ask you to respect that belief.
If we cast aside all the bad press and political, anti-Scientology crap and get down to the objective facts: it’s clear that thousands of people have gone into Narconon, and thousands of people have left as drug-free, contributing members of society.
If you have a drug problem then we can help you with it. If you feel that you can get better help somewhere else, then please go ahead and pursue that course of treatment.
If you end up like me, you will be tired of banging your head against a wall with countless unsuccessful attempts, and you will be glad of a program which offers something more tangible than a signpost to God and 12 step meetings.
I wouldn’t wish that on anybody but trust me, if you do ever get to that point in your addiction then you won’t be getting into debates about the politics of it all. I grabbed the solution as quickly as I could – because my life depended on it.
When you are ready to take the plunge, and begin your own successful course of recovery then please let me know. I will do all I can to secure you a place in a nice centre.
He dodged the question about the Doctor and I tried again.
No I honestly have not drawn my conclusions, I mean only to point out what I have read since I discovered Narconon recently.
I must say though I am rather perplexed by your answer that Wikilpedia reporting on the subject of Narconon Canada is some sort of conspiracy! I have read on numerous news sites that the reason given for its closure was just that what was published on Wikipedia.
Are you really suggesting that some media cabal is painting some black PR operation against Narconon?
I would also like to draw on your comment about Arrowhead. On one hand you say you cannot comment but you make it pretty clear that your viewpoint is these people died due to drugs being smuggled into the center.
That is a pretty big assumption is it not?
Basically James I am trying to come to a decision on what would be the best treatment for me and I thought that given your position questions like these would be commonplace.
I noticed that you did not reply to me regarding the Doctor who covered Hastings and the possibility that I could speak to him for a medical opinion on my health and how the program could benefit me.
My reasoning on this is that I would not feel comfortable with a Dutch doctor being assigned to me without speaking to one in the UK who is knowledgeable in this field and has worked with Narconon.
As I said I take seizure medication for complex partial seizures and it is Important that I speak with him before undertaking any form of treatment.
Fish returns to me but this time is being very difficult about the good doctor.
No, I am not suggesting that what is reported on Wikpedia is inaccurate. I am saying that the conspiracy existed in the fact that the campaign to close the centre was long fought, and numerous in incident, and that the incidents that resulted in its closure were very possibly orchestrated, if not set up.
There were very possibly financial incentives, or political incentives for the inspectors to go in with a preconceived agenda: to inspect the place with the intention of closing to the place down.
The fact that Wikipedia was updated so quickly (before the news had reached the media) indicated that those responsible for keeping the Narconon entry up to date had an inside knowledge on what was happening. It was not someone from within Narconon. It happened so quickly that it struck me as something of a jubilant rub of salt into the wound, from someone whose plan had come together nicely.
I know for sure that this is the case, because I have read reports and communications between the attackers themselves. They were delighted to cause the closure of Canada, and they are targeting Narconon Alberta, Arrowhead, Michigan and California next. I am 100% certain of this because i have seen proof.
I dont’ want to get pulled into commenting about Narconon Arrowhead. I am only giving my personal opinion and not speaking for Narconon. Please respect this fact when I am conversing with you about this, and don’t abuse it by turning it against me.
I reiterate that an investigation is being made, and that the conclusions have not been reached.
I did not pass on any details of the doctor that was used, because he has requested that I do not give his contact details out for any reason, as he is a very busy man. I apologise for not addressing this in my last email.
If you want to get some advice on the medication you are on, please tell me what kind of medication it is, and I will find out if it would be ok for you to take it on the program. It may well be the case that you do not need to swap medications. In any case, you would need to adhere to the rules and advice you get from the staff and doctor working with the centre you are placed in, and this would render the opinions of an Engllsh doctor somewhat redundant.
As you mentioned a Dutch doctor, I would add that there are not necessarily places in Holland, and I would need to check for availability in the centres. I would also need to check your expectations and requirements of the accommodation, and find somewhere that suits.
The house in Holland is very busy house, and the sleeping arrangements are crowded with between 3 and 6 people in rooms, sharing bunk beds in many cases. This is reflected in the reduced cost of treatment there. I would not want to place you in that centre, if it was not going to be of a high enough standard for you. Narconon Sweden and Narconon Italy offer a higher standard of accommodation, but this is reflected in the price.
If I am to undertake any program I would want to speak to the Doctor who dealt with the UK and if I cannot then I feel I will have to seek treatment from an alternative source.
I fail to see why an NHS doctor would not want to be contacted!, he is not in the employment of Narconon exclusive and by definition represents the National Health Service of the UK and should be contactable quite easy.
I am now rather alarmed that you say there are different rules for staff and doctors for the centre I am placed in! I do NOT agree with you when you say it would render the opinions of an English Doctor redundant.
English Doctors have kept me seizure free for a number of years with no side effects and I take very seriously what our doctors advise and certainly so over the opinion of a foreign Doctor who has no history of my case and epilepsy which I can assure you if the medication is messed with incorrectly could result in putting me in intensive care or worse still a coffin.
So I ask you again would it be possible at least to contact the surgery where the doctor is to arrange an appointment with him and again given he is an NHS doctor there is no valid reason why you cannot disclose who the doctor is.
Finally we get what we wants!
When I originally described the scene that we had in Narconon Hastings I referred to a doctor who was operating a practice in the locality of the centre in St Leonards on sea, who we had the arrangement with as described.
Due to various circumstances, which were not related to the administration of our program we ceased our agreement with him and he has relocated to a busier practice in the centre of Hastings. He is and always was an NHS doctor, but as we no longer have a relationship with him is is not appropriate for me to refer you to him with Narconon related enquiries,More recently we had been using a doctor who is also a qualified M.D names Josef Kees who is at ABC Clinic, Forest Row. He runs a practice which specialises in natural medicine although I believe he is still an advocate of mainstream medicine.
Neither doctor has a relationship with Narconon anymore as a result of the closure of the centre, and although Dr Kees was the one used more recently, he did request that his details are not just given out for the purpose of general enquiries. In any case, we were seeking a new NHS doctor with which to build a relationship with in the vicinity of the new centre. As the plans for the new centre have been delayed, so have any plans with assigning a new doctor to work with.
I did not say that there are going to be different rules for staff and doctors for the centre you are placed in, rather I meant that you would need to work with the doctors and the staff, within the Narcoon rules, of the centre and country you were in.
If you saw a doctor in another country, you would be subject to the treatments and medications used in that country. That is the only reason why I think that a consultation with a UK doctor is redundant, not that his opinions are redundant.
The rules of Narconon centres do not change from country to country. If your medication is mood altering, then an alternative would be preferred. If that is not possible it may be the case that you are not qualified to do the program. There are many medications which are not mood altering which can be used. I know of epileptics who were on anti-seizure medication who have done the Narconon program in Holland. It does not present an issue.
Most interesting he named the doctor, here is the scientology rundown on this chap http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/stats/by-name/j/josef-kees.html
Not one to leave it there I reply.
Thank you for providing me with the details of the Doctor you last used being Josef Kees.
I attempted to get his contact information by entering his name into google, I was rather alarmed that the first page of google results informed that this Doctor is in fact a Scientologist of high standing.
Being that we both agree there is yet to be proven scientific studies to the treatment, I find it quite alarming that the Doctor in question just happens to be a Scientologist!.
Do you not find that his medical judgement would be bias?
Bias because he subscribes to the Church of Scientology and would therefore be in acceptance of these Narconon treatment claims while again no scientific verification exists.
Again I would only feel safe making a valid informed choice on my medication by an NHS Doctor. I do not wish you to name the doctor but could you at least inform me which surgery he/she operates from?
To clarify, we do NOT both agree that there are no proven scientific studies to the treatment. Twice, I have linked you to those which are, in turn, linked on the (WARNING SCIENTOLOGY SITE AHEAD) narconon.org website. There are numerous.
I take your point that there is a likelihood that as a Scientologist, Dr Kees would be in acceptance of Narconon methods. However, as a quailitifed M.D, I think he is quite an appropriate choice to offer advice on the type of medication that you could take. In fact, I would suggest he is better qualified to answer your question than anyone else, because as a Scientologist he will understand exactly what the preference would be from Narconon’s point of view.
I recommend that you contact him first and if you would like to check the validity of his judgement with an NHS doctor afterwards then you could go ahead and do so.
While those websites seeking to discredit Narconon would have you believe that as an organisation linked to Scientology, Narconon and its operations are shrouded in secrecy, that is simply NOT the case – this is just quite amusing now The reason I didn’t pass on the details of the NHS doctor to you were because he has not been working for Narconon for some time and so it is not appropriate for his details to be given out to answer Narconon related enquiries.
I guess that as you insist, and because the issue, as you pointed out in your last email, is actually acceptance of Narconon’s treatment claims while you feel that no scientific evidence exists, here are the details you want to satisfy your curiosity:
Dr Higginson, Hastings Medical Centre.
Very Best Regards,
I figure give him some slack and engaged in the money part, that should cheer him up. But why am I so interested in France? Because back in 1984 Jocelyne Dorfmann died as a result of being taken off the medication that controlled her epilepsy. When she had seizures, they assumed it was withdrawal symptoms. After she died, the center was closed & charges filed.
Thank you for your last email.
I can now get an informed view of the program and if the program is suited for me.
Ok could you advise me then on the costing I could expect for the program?
I would still be interested in the centre in Holland and also the pricing for the other facilities.
Could you advise is there a centre in France? I saw some reference to it but cannot find any further information if it is still in operation.
Did that also close or am I just not looking in the right place?
The cost of the program in European centres is 2500 Euros / month. There are Narconon centres in Sweden, Denmark, Austria, Germany, Spain and Italy. I believe the centers in Sweden and a whole network of centers in Italy are very nice. Denmark is very small and is quite personalised.
There is no center in France.
The center in Holland charges 2500 Euros for the first month, and they then discount this for subsequent months to 1500 Euros.
Alternatively, you can pay 12000 Euros in a lump sum and you can stay as long as necessary to complete your program.I stayed in Holland for over 18 months because I broke my arm midway through the sauna which left my in limbo for a couple of months and I also decided to take things slowly and help out there. I needed a long time before I was ready to leave as I had experienced so many relapses in previous attempts. It was the right thing for me.The reason the cost of the program is reduced in Narconon Holland is because its standard of accommodation is not so high. The bedrooms are crowded, with bunk beds and when the house is full it will sleep around 6 to each room. When the house is not so full it is fine. There are only 2 showers in the house, with only one main bathroom so people tend to find their own routine, get a ‘slot’ where the bathroom is free to use and stick to it.Having said that, there is always plenty of food in the cupboard for snacks, beautiful bread, cheeses, cold meats, and fresh fruit, and of course Holland’s pride, coffee!. Although there are European laws prohibiting smoking inside buildings, I would warn you that Holland seems to be a nation of smokers and when I was resident, nearly Everybody smoked and people do smoke in the living room. Bedrooms should be a smoke free zone. Currently, I believe the house is about half full so it is quite pleasant there. There is a fantastic atmosphere; very European in humour and attitude so there is a lot of banter, camaradarie etc.It has a strong group conscience and the residents are all very protective of each other and the ED Joanna, a lady who has been running the centre for around 30 years. It is an environment where for the most part, people are happy and motivated and have a lot of fun. The courseroom supervisor named Arpad has been doing the job for over 10 years. He is very thorough and will most definitely get your through the material ensuring you understand it fully and you can APPLY what you have learned, which is key. If you would like me to double check availability for you, and secure you a place please let me know. Best regards
After this exchange there was no further communication from Fish or Narconon UK.
I guess that someone in OSA or high up in Scientology finally contacted him and told him to shut up as the whole affair was being posted on WWP.
Mr Fish I thank you, it was a ride.